Morello: Mobility Creep has occurred, but I think this is spoken about as the problem as opposed to a symptom. The problem, in this case, is where we had champions not giving up anything when they contained mobility. This was especially rampant in 2011, but the problem is rarely the mobility itself and more the underlying design problems that lead to problematic mobility.
One example is how Vi’s ultimate was talked about a lot as "mobility creep." I think the real problems occur there when there’s no meaningful recourse to that move, her being able to move far is fine – provided than when she does, you have actions that make sense to deal with her. Some of this is the CC immunity, some of this is her raw brawling power when she gets there. If some cost is paid, actually or strategically, then the skill can avoid this pitfall.
So, I think Mobility Creep isn’t a major issue – mobility tends to create interesting and dynamic fights and is fun to use – but the issue, like true damage, % HP damage and other mechanics we’ve done this with, is in how and where it is used.
I edited my post, but in the initial barrage of "there’s Morello – get him!" from me returning to the forums, I read yours too quickly. I did say melee ADC would be -better- this season, and they are, but I also claimed I didn’t think Season 3 would fully solve the problem. I think that’s been pretty accurate overall.
Now, let’s put this thread on a good note; let me tell you two must-haves for Season 4 to ship successfully in my mind;
We’re going to significantly improve, and ultimately fix, jungle and support gold flow. I feel this is one of the most painful areas of League, and one that can be fixed. A lot of the satisfaction in League is growing in power over time, getting items, and transitioning from early to late game with items. It’s definitely a problem that 2/5 of players don’t get to do this.
Season 4 changes will address this problem, and very likely throw balance into a tailspin for preseason. Eggs, omelettes, etc. We’ll work hard to get that fleshed out and tuned before S4 starts properly.
Wards and the map vision system need to be overhauled. This is part-and-parcel with the above as Support gold largely suffers due to ward gold burden, but there are a multitude of other problems like snowballing, few real interesting ward decision-making opportunities, and few people involved with the vision game. Details have to wait, but the new system will address these issues.
What are your plans for the Fighter class in Season 4?
Morello: Not ready to share details on this since things are really in flux, but to solve some of the meta-golemy nature of some fighters, and give them distinct places in a teamfight (ie; a team role if one is not present other than "be strong").
Follow-up: So every Fighter will have a distinct purpose, i.e soak, DPS and so on?
Morello: Some of that, yes, but also like "Vi should be tuned around a dive fighter" where "Udyr is a powerful mid-line fighter."
Opinion on Kassadin, Zed, Ahri, Galio, Taric and Ziggs
Morello: Kassadin: Too strong, but because he’s so feast/famine. Needs some big work, but I’m at a loss on this one.
Zed: A bit too strong, but want to see longer term effects of previous nerfs. Not against more.
Ahri: Solid – pretty close, but popular right now.
Galio: Tough to make room for in a team, but doesn’t have enough levers to balance. Needs light rework.
Taric: Same as above.
Ziggs: I think great in lane, does ??? late game in teamfights.
Why are some champions nerfed to the point where they’re no longer picked?
Morello: It is when we can’t simply buff them to be good or make small changes. Fighters (and why CertainlyT is focused on them!) are the biggest culprits of this, and tend to make this list more than others. Much of this is based around the schizophrenic goals and role fulfillment on fighters (which typically comes with low counter-play) and them deriving value from nothing but raw power. Not only aware, but one of our biggest open sores that’s very hard to solve without a LOT of disruption.
Do you feel DoT (Damage-over-time) Champions are in a good spot?
Morello: I’m not sure, actually – it’s something I should talk more with the team about. I’m a bit surprised with how far this type of champion has fallen out of flavor and want to get word from guys with boots on the ground here.
What’s your opinion on Miss Fortune?
Morello: MF falls in and out of flavor as different champions and comps trend up and down. I like this pattern overall and think MF is OK as-is.
Why isn’t Ahri as mobile as the currently dominant picks? ( Zac, Kha’Zix, Zed )
Morello: I think it’s a cost-benefit thing. If Ahri does what they do, and is mobile, then there’s no contest. If Ahri is highly mobile but has some cost associated it that allow Annie and Brand to compete, then that’s great. Udyr is the Fighter example of where this works.
Annie’s actually in a good spot, but agreed Brand is in a bit of a lull due to this.
Xerath iterates on Morello‘s promises to fix support gold income.
Xelnath: *sharpens his claws a bit*
For those of you who missed it, I want to draw attention to this post.
These two systems have been the major project that Xypherous and I have been working on for the last 3-4 months. This has been a huge effort, in terms of collecting data, experimenting and generally playing mad scientist while attempting to preserve the core of what makes Summoner’s Rift fun.
There’s four huge topics here:
- Jungle gold income
- Support gold income
- Support expenditures on warding
- The effects of using wards to gain vision
Trying to hit all 4 cohesively in one point is madness, however, they are all HIGHLY interconnected. So while this thread is about the overlap between all four, expect to see breakout threads from myself or other designers discussing each topic individually to gather focused feedback.
For this post, I want to talk about the relationship between support income, warding and the problems these two systems are causing with each other:
What are the issues?
- Supports are expected to not last hit, thus gaining no income
- Supports are expected to shoulder most of the gold burden for purchasing wards
- Supports are expected to roam the map and ward
- Supports are expected to buy expensive activated items
- Supports are expected to be effective without gold revenue
- Supports are often tied to the Marksman carry
- Supports never get to achieve an endgame fantasy due to losing all of their income to vision expenditures
- Wards are necessary to protect the sanctity of laneing from persistent Jungler aggression
- Wards are necessary to observe important locations and objective
- Wards cost gold, from the character least equipped to afford them
- Wards are the only option for revealing a specific area to move forward safely
- Wards used in the previously mentioned way linger for a long time (3 minutes!!)
- Wards are so important, players feel entitled to having the map warded without contributing
Wow! This is a lot!!
No kidding. This is not a small set of problems. So to kick off this discussion, help me out:
- What do you think are the problems with support income?
- How much gold do you think supports need over the course of a 50 minute game (hint: I know the answer, but tell me what you think…)
- If we were to give more gold to supports, in what kind of situations would you expect to be getting more gold?
- How do we get other players to recognize the power of wards and the vision they provide?
- Are all wards too powerful? Are just pink wards too powerful?
- Should the lowest income character shoulder the highest consumable expenditures in the game?
- Are the expectations on a support player too high?
Summary on Community Feedback
Xelnath: So to summarize:
- You guys generally agree its unfair that supports both earn less and spend more
- Think it might be fair if they earned equal amounts as laners but spent more on wards (relative to laners)
- Are concerned that even if income was fixed, supports would still spend 100% of gold on wards
- Feel that there’s not enough interactions in the warding system right now
- Believe we should look into ways to let non-supports get some vision in a way that doesn’t restrict their item builds
X-Posted on EUW.
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